Disillusioned at Eve

Don’t worry, I’m not disillusioned, but I wanted to highlight a recent topic on called Disillusioned at EVE. Can we talk, /r/EVE? If you haven’t been exposed to the r/eve or r/evedreddit you should spend some time reading over the content. The discourse is far more productive and insightful than the pitchfork wielding masses on the Forums.

The poster talks about his experience amassing a lot of ISK, grinding out in PVE sites, and becoming involved in large-scale nullsec fleet warfare yet still not finding anything truly rewarding. When I started playing Eve in 2008, the end game for me was a Nyx Mothership (this was before the name/role change to Supercarrier). It was a beautifully designed hull that seemed to my virgin eyes as the end game of Eve. Once you pilot that ship, nothing could destroy you. How things have changed…

I have lived in highsec, wormhole space, and now I’m making a home in nullsec. I’d like to reiterate the line that ‘Eve is what you make of it’. Right now I am finding solace in managing corporation financials.

The poster talks about how large-scale nullsec warfare is a lot of warping around, blobbing, and hot dropping. I have no rebuttal to that as being involved in nullsec at the moment, this is what we do.

From reading a lot of opinions over the months, I have come to the conclusion that the PVP experience in wormhole space is keeping a lot of people interested in the PVP aspect of the game. If you look at the numbers coming out of CCP, activity in wormhole space has been increasing since it was introduced.

The mass limitations in the lower classes keep capital ships from traveling between spaces while higher classes limit the capital ships that can be brought for an engagement.  The design of this mass mechanic is truly brilliant and it is what has kept the spark in veteran and newcomer PVP’ers alive.

A few people have suggested to the poster that he should find an active WH Corp so perhaps he will go with that suggestion and find a new passion.


20 Questions with Blake

This week I opened up the floor for questions on Twitter and here are some of your questions answered.

If I review the type of games that have really captivated me, they all contain a sandbox element. You are given a place to play, a set of tools, and you can do what you want within the limits of the game framework.

The Doom series, with it’s ability to create custom levels, textures, and game logic drew me into game design at an early age. The Sim City series was especially entertaining as you could build something up, save it, and then see how it performs under disaster scenarios. Alien invasion? Four volcanoes? <evil laugh>.

An amazing game called Star Control II really stands out. The first time I pulled up the map in Star Control II my eyes went huge with anticipation. You mean I can go to any system at any time? It isn’t all scripted? Eve mimics this type of exploration possibility.

I think I saw a ad for Eve on a side-banner ad at PCGamer’s site in 2009. At the time I wasn’t playing anything with any dedication and I had never played one of those new-fangled “MMORMOOPMMGOOPGs” so I thought I would give it a try.

I spent a few weeks trying to figure out how items were structured. Lows, Mids, and Highs? Lasers, Artillery, and Rails? Armor, Shields, and *gulp* Hull? I remember that I put some lasers on my Gallente frigate to run Level 1 missions and I exploded almost instantly due to not knowing how to tank damage.

After pouring through guides, forum posts, and chatting in the NPC channels I came to the conclusion that joining a corporation was the next course of action. Mining is fun, right? So let’s join a mining corporation.

Three years later, I still have relationships with some of the people in my original corporation. I can tell you who has kids, when time they wake up, go to work, and how drunk they can get and still warp to a gate. Space friends I tell you.

My dad’s name is Ray and he is a architect and private pilot. Here’s a picture of me flying with him in his Piper PA-32.

Please note that I have a fear of heights and yet strangely I feel very comfortable in a plane when my dad is piloting. I have major anxiety issues on commercial flights which I believe has to due with a trust factor; I trust my dad to pilot the plane well because I know his abilities. In the commercial setting, I have no control over what is going to happen.

And yes, I got the Kindergarten Cop reference.

I wish. have you looked at the T2 production workflow?! Eve Journey has a good summary of the skills and people involved but honestly, who at CCP came up with it?

I understand that it was designed so that no one person can control the entire chain from raw materials to end product, but come on. I’m an industrialist-spreadsheet-custom-sql-database-wallet-manager type of guy and have spent hours trying to figure out to optimize my Tier 2 production chains.

Try this trick: if the room is spinning, you should lay on your back on the bed. Place one leg on the floor. Strange, but it helps me out!

If you haven’t read this post about one corp member’s failed April Fools joke, then do so now. Here’s the crux of the post:

This year, I turned my brain towards a simple, yet massive prank: In between the hours of midnight and five AM, I was going to move the WH PoS one moon to the left, then, send a corp mail saying “har har i wuz spy and stole your iskies”.

I have not. It is all about chance. I can say that if you are in a C6/5 and scanning around there is a very high probability that you will run into Aperture Harmonics. When you get an undesirable WH link, you hop in your battleship, Orca, or Capital and close the wormhole.

One time we got a link to a Aperture system with a few Capitals in it. My corpmate wanted to close the link quickly so he got into his Orca. As he was about to warp to it I yelled over comms, “stop! hold position!” as a Aperture Dreadnaught appeared on our side of the wormhole. I sat quietly for a few seconds, taking a deep breath while looking at the ferocious Revelation waiting out his jump timer.

Before I reacted, he jumped back to their side, closing the wormhole. Apparently they also wanted to link closed! As always in wormhole space, have cloakey eyes everywhere.

Sound? Rain and thunderstorms. Favorite color? Navy blue. Eve in the next few years? I would like to have a BPO of every Capital, Subcapital, Module, and Ammo and become a industry giant. I’ve collected 3 Carrier, 3 Freighter, and the majority of the useful Module and Ammo BPOs, but I still have a long way to go.

Sleepers! Ah, yes. I spent an afternoon doing some reading on the origin of the Sleepers and found some very interesting comments from CCP Dropbear:

The complexity of the Sleeper’s story runs so deeply that it may take some time to understand.

The pieces of this puzzle are scattered across a wide area, and a stretch of time unlike any event in EVE has seen before.

We are watching and waiting for the day to come when the capsuleers will move this particular storyline forward. We are still waiting.

Ominous yet intriguing. Hopefully we are in store for the same type of depth as in the Babylon 5 “Space Opera” (as I call it) series.

2 Year Anniversary Wormhole Prize Hunt Giveaway Bonanza

Two years ago a corpmate responded to my boredom comments in corp chat with an offer to come join him in the new frontier known as Wormhole space.  I dove in headfirst with nothing to my name but a Covetor, a Dominix, and some 50 M in ISK.

At this time there were a lot of mechanics and logistical challenges to be figured out. We started this blog to help share some of our discoveries, shenanigans, and encounters in the unknown land of Wormhole space with the Eve community. Though we are currently not active in Wormhole space, I still keep the original mission of openly sharing information and experiences with the community alive.

So cheers to you, the Eve community, for being readers of our discourse. We would like to offer up prizes to everyone that has helped us stay passionately involved over the past two years.

As in true k162space fashion, we’re not going to simply give away a prize to the best comment, worst fit, or hold a lottery (thanks to CCP_OhWell for the wonderful suggestion).

Anchored in J124654J212203, and J235219 around a planet is a can with a Bookmark. Comment on this post with the Bookmark codename as the comment will serve as your timestamp. Prizes will be given out based on discovery time.

1st Prize – PLEX [update] Found Sept 9 @ 17:01
2nd Prize – Pirate Frigate of your choice with T1 rigs and T2 modules
3rd Prize – Sisters Scanning Set

Fire up the scanning probes and get hunting!

Again, thanks everyone for the experiences so far and cheers to another two years!

Edit from miningzen: The cans are at 0 on planet III in all three systems and are called “”, no password.

Screw you, Murphy

I should be doing physics II questions right now.

Anywho, back in WH space, I’ve had a bit of a snag. By which I mean several snags.

By which I mean if I didn’t know better I’d swear I was intentionally screwing up just to have something to post about.

Which I’m not. Pinky promise.

Anywho, to shoot the most NPCs in nullsec, I have two alts trained up to domis and not much else. They can use t2 RR, t2 energy xferr, some drones and that’s it. I’m not entirely sure if I bothered to pick up gun skills at any point. Oh, and they fly itty Vs and (in another week or three) will have perfect learning skills in preparation for “operation triple character carrier”.

If anyone can think of something to do with multiboxing three carriers please let me know as I honestly haven’t thought it out past “OMG 45 DRONES”.

Anyway, this is becoming a bit of an issue in a wormhole as anything bigger than a cruiser requires more reps than Eve’s public image after a typical dev post in the forums is met by a truckload of people who appreciate that they’re working on lag, they’d just rather they work on it a bit harder.

Coupled with the fact that the warp-in points SOMEHOW always spit you out 70km or more away from the actual sleepers who seem to be exploiting that AHARM C6 with reckless abandon.

So, you’ve got the equivalent of walking towards someone half a mile away at a brisk pace while he shoots at you with a handgun with perfect range the entire time and you can only hit about ten feet in front of you because you’re holding five or six riot shields and throwing duct tape at your friend to patch the holes the guy is shooting.

This is irritating as I somehow perfectly calculated my tank to be EXACTLY however much DPS sleepers tend to do, so I’m constantly sweating and cursing as my armor has made such a frequent habit of dropping into hull I’m not sure how much of the original armor remains as compared to whatever the hell RRs actually do to the ship they’re repairing.

So, to fix this whole brisk walk towards man with a sniper rifle issue, I’m using a zephyr to get myself warp-in points about 500m away from the BS, whaling the crap out of them, then warping away, zephyr, repeat, hooray.

In my latest use of this strategy, I was in a mostly cruiser wave. Not wanting to warp in and out and such, I dropped a cap recharger and fitted an AB to each battleship. Warp in, turn on the ABs and start approaching the sole remaining BS. It goes down, and these three annoying warp scramming frigs show up.

Fully prepared for the situation, I launched my hobgoblin IIs and made a humorous comment in WH colonists:

haav0c > “Hello, warp scrambling frigs. Meet tiny whirring balls of hobgoblin death”

God, I’m so witty. Unfortunately I was so busy thinking “crap, Murphy’s Law now states that I cannot possibly survive this wave as I have already predicted its successful outcome” to notice that my ships had drifted/ ABed away from each other at top speed and were now upwards of 10km from each other.

For those who don’t know, the range of an RR module is something like 6-8km. I don’t remember, but the important thing is it’s less than 10km by a good 2km or more. Now, I want you to imagine a scenario:

You are taking heavy fire in a battleship and are traveling at top speed (200m/s) in the x direction. If your tank will only hold for another 20 seconds without RR, will you survive if you are currently traveling towards your RR partner?

Will you survive if you are traveling at top speed in EXACTLY THE WRONG DIRECTION?

Will you survive if you are traveling at top speed in exactly the wrong direction and in your haste you forget to turn the afterburner off?

Will you survive if you are traveling at top speed in exactly the wrong direction, you forgot to turn off the AB AND you are currently in a Black Hole C4 wormhole? (+44% inertia)?

For those of you reaching for a book on Eve physics and a pencil, I can save you some time and reveal that the scenario in which everything has gone horribly wrong will result in one destroyed RR BS while three warp scrambling frigs, unamused by the hobgoblin tomfoolery, are still alive. Consequently, the other RR BS follows, followed by the DPS BS.


After half an hour of an entertaining movie and picking up my loot and the destroyed sleeper’s loot 10 m3 at a time in a zephyr, I check my fuel levels.

20 hours of coolant, enriched uranium and nitrogen isotopes left.

Ok, that’s manageable, I can scan a route in that time, I just need to force collapse some WHs with my Orca and BS.

*Inner Voice* what BS?

…that pile of metal over there.

*Inner Voice* surrounded by the angry sleepers?


*Inner Voice* good luck with that.

I hate you.

So, after two hours of collapsing our static C4 which seems to only be heavily occupied and/or leading to C5s, C6s or more effing C5s, It’s the last pass of the Orca through a X-something-something-something WH to close it so I can scan another useless WH and then preferably find another, better one.

Again, up goes the witty comment, this time in the local chat I will soon be separated from and never see again, ever.

haav0c > DIE WH DIE!

Once again, just as I said that, I thought of Murphy’s Law. Then, once again, I jumped through with the AB on just to make sure that my eight passes (with a 250 mil mass ship) would collapse this hole (2 bil mass).

As you can probably guess, it didn’t effing close.

With corp mates complaining about the fuel alerts and 18 hours of fuel left, I make an executive decision. Since all I have left is some itty Vs, GSCs and destroyers/scan frigs, I stuff everything in the Orca, offline the tower and logoff.

It is an incredibly short term solution but is also viable for long term, assuming no-one bashes it. As to you people bashing it, why in all the hells would you bash a tower with nothing possible to be gained from it?

Anywho, I’ll keep looking for a BS capable route while studying for the Physics test Tuesday. Electric potential energy and all related constants and variables are jerks.

Blakey is Back

Hey, remember me? I started to get into WH space in August of 2009 and then started this blog to share information on how to survive, probe, fight, defend, conduct shenanigans and mine in WH space. After a few months, miningzen joined our coporation and dove headfirst into WH space (loosing some ships), making a lot of profit. Over the last year, miningzen has taken over a lot of the routine posts because I started to focus on other things.

This summer I took on the challenge of doing a Half Ironman distance Triathlon (70.3 miles or 113.14 kilometers for YOU people) and I have to say that I did cross the finish (be it 6.5 hours later). I’m a swimmer a heart, get humbled on the bike, and am an average runner. This weekend I’m taking on the Chicago Triathlon for an end-of-season-fun-time-race and then I will sit quietly for a while. With the training/racing season coming to an end, there will be more time for Eve. No more going to bed at 9:30 PM (until Spring)!

Sadly, I currently have no characters in WH space as I am trying out the nullsec sovereignty war gameplay, but I would like to get back into it this fall. Welcome back Blake, we’ve missed you!

Sometimes you get back on the horse…

and sometimes the horse kills you twice and molests your wreck.

Most people can guess where this post goes from that title. SO!

As the earlier short burst of fiction suggested, I’ve moved into a C4. It’s technically a corp op. I say technically because I’m the only person actually IN the WH and it was technically funded by the corp.

I say technically because I took 300 mil out of the corp wallet and gave the reason “Misc. Expenses”. Thanks, director rights!

So, step one, get a tower. 187 mil (holy damn!)

Step two: various defences. 40 mil (dickstar)

Step three: Buy pos fuel for a week or five. 100 mil (damn you, PI! Or rather, damn everyone not doing PI[me included] and the people who stockpiles getting filthy rich)

Step four: Buy ships. 250 mil. (domi x3, geddon, 3 salvage catalysts, three backup scan ships, one SB, two covops)

Step five: Buy fits. 70 mil. (t2 RR, energy xferr, t2 drones. The two alts I’m moving in with can’t shoot…well…anything, so gonna go w/ RR domi and hope the drones work)

Step six: Buy misc items. (fitting mods, hull reppers, spare probes, more spare probes, probe LAUNCHERS, spare drones, shield reps. If you want to be nitpicky, I got three jumps from jita before remembering the probes and all the way to the WH before I remembered hull reps)

Step seven: Fit it all into the orca. (erm…)

Step seven and a half: Buy 27 giant secure containers

Step seven and three quarters: Ditch half the strontium.

Step eight: undock

Step nine: redock and buy something you forgot

Step ten: undock and get three jumps before remembering something else.

Step eleven: make it to the WH in the orca and jump through to the chosen WH (keeping in mind all WHs in the link are occupied and you’re essentially a meals on wheels to them.)

Step twelve: Anchor the tower.

Step thirteen: Realize you’ve forgotten nitrogen isotopes.

Step fourteen: DAMNIT!

Step fifteen: Realize you’ve forgotten an industrial or two.

Step sixteen: Kill two birds with one stone, go BACK to jita, buy ship, buy isotopes, go back in.

Step seventeen: Realize that it’s four in the morning.

Step Eighteen: anchor the corp hangar

Step nineteen: micronap.

Step twenty: wake up and being to hallucinate. Online corp hangar, anchor and online maint bay, store ships and items.

Step twenty one: The pos defenses agree to anchor themselves while I get the domis and other big ships in. They don’t, but when I get back the PoS promises to make sure they do by the time I wake up.

Step twenty two: bed.

So, defenses up, I fit the domis for RR and cap xferr and tank. The geddon gets four pulse lasers and three tachyons, because I’ve forgotten sleeper BS’s range and not because I’ve forgotten to buy fit rigs and more than four tachyons.

For those who haven’t gathered, I’m running three accounts. The relationship is like the food pyramid. Haav0c is the delicious dessert section and hardar and herleena are the grains, who have cap xferr between then and distributing RR and drones. In null, I was able to fit haav in a geddon for full on gank, which was stable with a med xferr coming from one of the domis. This was incredibly powerful as the domis were also fitted for sniping at 100km w/ sentrys, which made all the anomalies look like this when I was done:

Anyrate, using this setup put out hella lot of damage with ten sentry drones and tachyons hitting the silly BS null rats who slowboated straight towards me in a perfect reenactment of the charge of the light brigade, which resolved itself with superb historical accuracy when everything but me exploded.

So, warp into a site. The sleepers are 140km away. They start shooting, I start repping, everything’s froody. We start slowboating towards each other. Since I’m in one of those silly velocity increasing WHs with hits to targeting, I have to get within 70km to target. All the whole with two sleeper BSs hitting me.

The RR logistics works well, and I finally start hitting the BS who looked at me funny. It explodes eventually.

Unfortunately, the three sleeper BSs that spawned just after that sleeper exploding painfully reminded me of how painful sleepers are. Clearly, my perma-running two large RR wasn’t going to be enough. I managed to get all three accounts out, tho.

I pull the hole closing domi I brought with me out and refit it into a mirror of the other two domis, three energy Xferrs, three RR, full tank in lows and cap rechargers in the mids. I warp to a planet and practice swapping all four reppers to one target.

So, full of confidence that nothing can possibly go wrong, I warp in. Haav0c DCs.

I manage to warp the other two out, tho; so I try and do a dual-logoff thingy to get me 100000km away, despite not knowing how to do it.

I log on haav, enter client and immediately clock the little “close” button in the upper right. I wait ten minutes, log back on, and I’m in a pod sitting in my domi wreck.

So, lacking another dominix or an exit, I bastardize my poor geddon into a RR droneboat. If the fit you’re thinking of makes you wince, you’re not far off.

Warp in, Start setting up the energy xferr chain. Haav starts taking armor damage. I set three RRs on him and go back to trying to set up the energy xferrs.

Hardar runs out of cap.

Haav runs out of reps.

Haav explodes.

Hardar and Herleena flee.


Welcome to WH space. Again.

POS Defense in Wormholes C1-6

Not so recently, CCRES came into our wormhole, noticed an orca floating in the shields, killed all our defences and reinforced our tower in case we had forgotten to put strontium in a tower in a dread-accepting enviroment.

The fact that they felt that the lack of strontium was a possibility makes me lose a little faith in the foresight of the Eve wormhole community.

Recently, I was contacted by a CCRES member who told me that they put the PoS into reinforced mostly for fun. Acting on various word cues in his description, I managed to decypher THIS message:

“Our reason was far grander than a petty Orca and what we had in the corp hangar, for the legendary tales of your pvp prowess and twisted cunning in use of cloaky ships was so utterly terrifying that we could not just close the connecting WH but attacked your tower in hopes that having their ships destroyed by your considerable defenses, THEN closing the connecting WH with what few ships remained would be the only way to appease your unquantifiable wrath. Unfortunately, the tower’s defenses had been mostly offlined and unanchored into the corp hangar due to a spy, who after his two year infiltration campaign only now had the courage to act on his orders to mildly inconvenience you, then immediately killed himself out of fear and shame. We were thus forced to put the inconvenienced tower into full reinforced, to better reflect it’s former armed glory until a point in the future where you could reanchor your powerful and majestic defenses.”

Anyway, we had the full compliment so they settled for sending us a mail essentially saying:
“Hey, we put your pos in reinforced looking for free ships, you should probably try this configuration next time”
(For those interested they recommended dickstar)

After the reinforced timer ended we repped the PoS in a rorqual, orca and a few BSs which got MUCH faster once we realized the ending of reinforced meant that we could access the cap rechargers, power relays and energy xfer arrays in the corp hangar.

Anyway, this shite got me thinking. Wormhole territory is fast becoming a shifting battlefield. PoS takedowns, once the product of Amarr BS fleets that passed out at their keyboards firing at abandoned structures, are becoming more frequent and frankly, kinda alarming. Between a friend of mine getting attacked by two dreads w/ BS support fleet, Planet Risk owning then being owned by R&K, and CCRES’s “Stront check” of our PoS, I’d like to give an overview of PoS defense in a wormhole:

You’re screwed.

Here’s a little more detailed and less cynical view:

Size restrictions allow only battlecruiser hulls or smaller, but know that haulers, which can hold cap parts, large towers, fuel, x-large ship assembly arrays and everything else required to build a dread to kill your PoSes, can.
Recommended defenses:
Small guns, some medium guns anchored but not online. BC hulls or smaller usually means your only attackers will have poor dps, so hardeners are recommended. By the time they’ve built a dread you should already be gone >.>

Battleships are allowed in here, good for sites, bad when someone hates you, has a route to you and has a BS fleet handy can be a significant threat to your well-being. Build a carrier and rent/own/know someone who has a carrier pilot handy to scare off/murder/ambush attackers.
Carriers are “allowed” to jump in here, hence you should be prepared. Don’t ask me how, we still haven’t come up with a a counter to a carrier/dread with support fleet.

Essentially, the deeper you go, the more likley you are to be screwed, because the less time attackers have to invest in beating you into the ground. A battlecruiser takedown of a PoS is torture, a BS takedown isn’t much fun, and a dread-assisted takedown is about less than an hour, so an attacker’s time invested in making your life a living hell is much less than what it took for you to get two capitals, orcas, and the other thirty ships you’ve amassed over several months into the wormhole.

Point is, if someone wants you out of a specific hole, they can motivate you to get out. If you fit guns, they’ll wait for your offtime and have RR gangs. If you fit ECM, they’ll bring a dread and sensor boosters. If you go full hardeners, they’ll bring a dread again. If you find the most amazing awesome pos configuration ever, they’ll just starve you of fuel. They can activate all your sites with a scan ship every morning, camp your static, build a dread, any number of things in mind to make you think “boy, I wish they weren’t here or I wasn’t here”. The best defence, IMO, is two fold:

The first and more reasonable method is to have several friends and/or piles of isk to hire several friends. Eve is a spreadsheet game, but is refreshingly simple in combat calculations, which usually amount to “Whoever has the most experienced friends wins”.

The method that, us lacking large groups of friends and a general sense of comradery, is to be ready to be gone. Write the PoS off as already dead, and have the expensive gear in capital ships/industrials. When, not if, WHEN you get attacked by a superior force move to a deep safe you’ve created before deep safes were nerfed(before May 18), and/or make a safe in system and logoff in it. Then, scan your static, which, since you’ve been preparing for this exact situation for a while, goes to a C4 or higher WH and will close exactly after you pass your entire operation through it, once it’s been shoved into cap ships/orcas. If said static has a static C4 or higher, move in, setup the backup pos and either rebuild there or go through the next static.

The third method, that dedicated people of eve will probably do, and do better than me, is to want the hole more. Have an Orca/carrier cloak in system w/ lots of SB hulls, scan ships hulls, and fits. Get 5-10 people in. Proceed to activate every site after downtime, bomb the static periodically and generally make whoever tried to take your hole/lives in the hole you want wish they’d never heard of a local-lacking environment. Take 200 combat scan probes, launch seven, cloak. Repeat every 2 hours or so. Eventually, they will leave. Wait a week. If they come back, do it all again, if they don’t, setup a small pos and put a maint array/hangar in it. Have one big ship and one small ship for each pilot. Pilots logoff in big ships w/ scan ships/SBs in orca and CHEAP haulers/other ships in the small tower’s maint array. Don’t bother putting anything in the small tower’s corp hangar, as anyone who finds it will try to put it into reinforced, making removal of the stuff difficult. Don’t worry about defenses, again, if someone wants the tower dead, it’s dead. Make sure to have stront, and if the dudes come back lookin for trouble, unanchor the pos (using a cheap hauler w/ SB support), stuff it in the Orca and go back to step one. Repeat as necessary until they stop coming back and you feel safe enough to anchor a large pos and/or keep living out of orcas/capitals. Use any spare orcas/carriers to collapse the static at inoppertune times, and restock your equipment (using cheap haulers) at 5 am their time and/or downtime. Bubble the static and cloak SBs nearby.

People attack your wormhole because they’ve either been hired to do it, they want your sites, or they’re just bored. The bored will leave, the hired will eventually stop working for the hirer, and the people that want your sites won’t get your sites because you activated all the sites every downtime. An Orca, a few scan ships and SBs w/ fits is not expensive at all compared to WH sites, so you can make their lives irritating w/ very little expense on your end. The person who wins will eventually either be the person/people who get bored first. Or, someone runs out of money. Who’s gonna run out of money first, the people w/ covops cloaks or the people who can’t cloak while they fight sleepers or mine?