Hulkawhat?Posted: 2010-01-08 Filed under: eveonline | Tags: eve online, hulk, hulkageddon, hulkageddon II 29 Comments
Warning: contains small amounts of miner whine. Drink responsibly.
So, apparently Hulkageddon II or whatever started today, or yesterday, depending on what time zone you live in, what time zone it was based off, I really wasn’t paying much attention.
Sometimes, I really like mining in WH space. Sure, someone could kill you at any moment, but the chance of it happening is much, much less than two dudes drunk in catalysts alpha striking your ass back down to covetor, financially, while giving them enough ISK from insurance and your modulated strips to do it all again to the point of organizing a contest based around screwing dudes over.
So, some dude said one day “Hey, let’s make other people’s lives miserable and hide it behind a facade of killing macrominers, requesting that the insurance system be fixed, and the words ‘arr’ and ‘allah ackbar'”. And apparently, all the people who joined him on this had so much fun that they said they should have a second one. Which they did. And then they kicked a puppy to get the puppy to whimper at them while they kicked his puppy friends too.
I know that mining barges, are, by design if not name, mining ships. I know that since they far outstrip(Pun intended) all other ships in terms of sheer minage ability. But does that really mandate a complete lack of defensive abilities and less offensive capacity than a tech one frigate?
A hulk has, base, approximately 7k EHP. You can tank that to the point that it can hold against most nullsec rats without much expense or spend a hellovalot and get it to tank all nullsec rats, but you won’t because the only reason you’d do that is if you either didn’t have a combat ship in the null system or you wanted to AFK in nullsec, two choices that would immediately drop-kick you back to a starting systems.
I know that I’m not the first person to whine about this, but when I get warp scrambled in a hulk, I take my hands off the keyboard. There is absolutely nothing I can do, offensive or defensive, that will prolong the combat enough for anyone friendly to step in and save me. Attempts at fitting an ECM hulk have gone horribly, since the ONE situation where I was in a situation where a hulk was being tackled, I locked the offending Loki, engaged the ECM and watched as absolutely nothing happened.
The concept of a Hulk is, bluntly, a ship that’s slow as hell, tankless as hell, unoffensive as hell, slow to align as hell, with basically every possible stat set to the lowest and boosting mining ability to the very highest.
Am I crazy, or does anyone else think that a Hulk, currently a 190 mil ship, shouldnt be able to be killed for under a mil, reward the killer with 7 mil, on average, worth of modules and payout 4-10 mil, depending on insurance, to the killed?
I mean, hell, letting strip miners do some damage would mollify me. It wouldn’t have to be much damage, just enough for me to think “HA, I can hurt you a little before I explode” instead of “Oh, I’m scrammed. Time to make a sandwich”.
I realize that I’ve kinda shot myself in the foot for almost ignoring the hulk’s dronebay, but when was the last time you felt threatened by five hobgoblins?
Alright, that would be a bit threatening…. Checking EFT, five hobgoblin IIs is…85 dps for me. So, in the fifteen seconds it takes to kill me, I can seriously threaten anyone with 1240 EHP or less. Boo.
Also, I’m sure this question has been asked and answered, but why kill miners? Be forewarned, any answer that sounds like “FOR MINER TEARS LIKE THIS ONE YUM YUM SLURP SLURP” or similar will be met with extended metaphors talking about kicking a puppy to listen to the whines. Dude, why would you kick a puppy? Unless it was a pomeranian one. That, I could sympathize with. For the non-dog-fanatics, Pomeranians are the small yappy dogs that are balls of fur with a face, bred for long, silky hair and a tendency to bark at anything percieved as a threat. Which is everything. Which gets EXTREMLY annoying when you’re the neighbor of someone with not one, but two Palmeranians that won’t shut up at one in the morning.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, we just got the first snow of the season so I shall be trying to carve a snow-hulk.
Edit: first attempt went horribly, as did later attempts to make a snow-capsule.
I read recently a psychologist saying the one reason why people criticize others is it actually makes them feel better about themselves. Simply put: if something is wrong with someone else (or something else) then you must be better – superior. I guess this is also how some people fall into the trap of complaining all the time – because by complaining it actually makes them feel better about themselves.
I think this theory might explain this whole idea of going out and destroying – lets face it: fairly defensive miners trying to just do their thing in the game. Just to be able to do it – and especially how those who perform these acts insist how much they enjoy the tears – just falls into the same psychological concept: it makes them feel good about themselves, they feel superior – whether or not in fact actual superiority is involved. Much like when you criticize others – whether it is true or not is besides the point.
The interesting part about this whole theory is that those who criticize the most, or bully the most are likely to be the most insecure people you will ever meet on the planet (or in space).
Yes, calling the hulkageddoneers jerk does make my epeen feel bigger.
Also, I’m fairly insecure.
But am I wrong?
Also, if those comments were directed at the other party, ignore that comment 😛
If I remember correctly, the first one was started as a suicide ganking plot to remove all the isk farmers afk macro mining in empire, who then composed a significant percentage of those mining in hulks. this was a Good Cause as it cost the isk farmers isk and generally made it hell for them.
Now it’s just for fun.
No, the first one was for fun too. 🙂
Yay, a straight answer.
I suppose that if I had a rocket launcher, and saw a field of sheep, and if I fired on the sheep I would be given another rocket, repeating indefinitley, I would shoot a hellovalot of sheep.
But then I imagined the farmer that owned the sheep stuck in a cage next to me, cursing. That’s also fairly funny.
Then I imagine the farmer just sitting in the corner, tired of yelling, fed up and ruined from my actions.
Nope, I can’t continue this metaphor. Too sad.
Excellent post, sir. I think for most people, myself included, the reason that we suicide gank is simply because we can. Plus Eve is supposed to be a cold and dangerous place. Pirates play an important role in making it so. Remember, CONCORD are there to punish and not protect. I do think that you shouldn’t get insurance for being killed by CONCORD, though.
Good luck with your snow sculptures.
I agree that something seems off kilter in this Hulkageddon thingy. Somehow its too easy.
I completely agree with you and wensley.
The fact we can do this and get an insurance payout is pretty insane.
We’re now 650 or so exhumers down the line, let’s hope CCP will take notice of how preposterous this is.
That said, a great many people are having a good time and making new friends left and right, and I’m willing to put my hand in the fire and say the VAST MAJORITY of the victims were either nowhere near their computers, or just not people at all.
I am getting reports of pods “mining” in belts FIVE HOURS after their ship was destroyed.
You can no longer convince me I am not doing a good thing.
I’d like to talk to you about a friend of mine. He played WoW. After a friend of his told him about Eve, he went to Eve. His friend helped him through the tutorials, and he started training for mining skills. Eventually, he could fly a hulk, so he mined for hours and hours and bought one for 170 mil. He then started flying it, only to have it be ganked by a dominix after a few weeks. As part of a large contest regarding exhumers.
I’m sure you can look at the good side about killing dudes using roid ripper or some shit like that, but I’m looking at the actual players.
I can’t convince you that you’re not doing a good thing, but you sure as hell can’t convince me you’re doing a good thing.
Unfortunately, since my brain has been wired to keep things going smoothly when two groups are completely opposed to each other, I’ve got a conditioned respo-
Hey there! How’s your life going!
P.S. since your post sounded like “yay we’re killing lotsa hulks”, Here is my counter-metaphor.
Ya know, the Spanish Inquisition seemed like a really good thing at the time, and one in ten dudes tortured actually did something wrong!
I’m sorry, the only metaphor I could think of involved African orphans and AIDS.
Oh dear! That *was* a lot of miner whine… but don’t worry, I’m not driving or operating machinery! 🙂
Search google for “halada mining guide” and read. Even though a Rohk is only half as efficient as an average hulk while mining, it can be tanked. And a little sacrifice in mining ability can increase the ability to properly defend yourself. Other ideas may strike you while reading the excellent guide from Halada.
50% is more than a little… It’s the difference between being virile and sterile. Don’t… think about that too hard.
I’m gonna throw out some assumptions here, and that’s that miners hate mining. The profit is nice, the sustained benefit is nice, it’s all nice except for sitting in a belt for eight hours straight thinking about how much you hate can flippers.
What you suggest would make eight hours of mining take sixteen hours. I don’t know about the other miners, and can’t speak for them, even though I just did, bit I’d rather punch myself in the stomach than go through a process while knowing that there was a faster, easier way.
P.S. I’m surprised that no-one has offered the counter argument to use a covetor, as I already discussed the yield differences as being negligible compared to the cost differences.
Read it, liked it, helped me, didn’t say anything about the hulk not being a pile of cardboard and Minmatar duct tape.
Hey now, don’t knock Minmatar duct tape….
Minmatar space-duct tape is fine, I’m referring to the tape that the hulk manufactures bought from a crazy old Minmatar man who made it out of actual ducks, in order to save 5 isk per yard.
Ugh, how would that even stick together? Ducks are very oily critters, and they’re mean! Seriously… raised a duck, it bit and drew blood, subsequently released it at an elderly home’s pond.
Well, the duct tape matter has been settled to my satisfaction. 🙂
It seems to me people are missing something here, that 10k EHP may well keep you from those solo gankers, it won’t keep you safe from a BattleShip but then, if a BS can’t take down a miner… something is off.
True, getting hammered by 5 attackers instead of one changes things, but where excactly are you loosing in if this is the case?
You can not, should not, never ever be able to out solo PvP five dedicated attackers without some serious investments in isk, SP and skills.
However get 4 more people on your side and see how things change?
For instance 3 other Hulk pilots with that 25m3 drone bay. (Shield rep, damage or variation of some.)
And 1 Logistics ship! -Think you would have a chance by then? Also, don’t solo fit, team fit.
I think I’ll actually put this in my blog, it needs an update anyway. 😛
Really if CCP would allow insuring T2 ships for what they are actually worth it wouldn’t be that big a hassle….
It’s the incentive structure that’s off kilter … change the insurance system and suicide ganking completely disappears except for the those with insane isk balances and no impulse control…
But if they increase T2 insurance, then you’d just get ganked by T2 ships in high sec.
I think one of the best possible solutions I’ve seen was a previous comment about removing insurance if killed by CONCORD. It won’t stop the gankings, but it would most likely lessen the hordes.
Ultimately, the sand-box style of Eve dictates that the pirates can do whatever they want so long as they are willing to pay the price, which in this case is losing ships to CONCORD. If you take away their ability to do as they please, it would ruin the entire sand-box.
If you want to mine, then mine. Accept the losses, as you will make more money than most in game even after the losses. If you want to pew pew, then do so. PVP is a huge ISK sink by itself, so no pirates are going to pity your monetary losses.
Let’s pretend for a minute that lowsec was a friendly place where people could mine in peace. Then one day, pirates or whomever, started jumping into the belts and killing miners left and right and ruining their fun. Would it be any different than the situation that Hulkageddon is causing? Regardless of where or how you’re mining, you are responsible for your own safety AND YOU HAVE THE TOOLS TO DEFEND YOURSELF. Read that caps locked part again carefully. Regardless of what part of space you are flying in, you have a scanner and the ability to watch local. Regardless of the part of space you’re in, you have the ability to align and warp. Regardless of the region of space you’re in, you have the ability to fit a solid tank to your ship that would easily repel almost half a dozen of these suicide destroyers (but probably not a battleship). Regardless of the security status of the space you’re in, you have the ability to find a corner system that is rarely visited by other players to mine in.
My point is that you cannot complain because you have the tools to avoid having your ship destroyed. It isn’t anyone elses fault if you are too lazy to use them.
I mine in WH space, so I have to watch the scanner. I think people mine in highsec so they don’t have to worry about getting killed randomly or watching the scanner.
Also, my ship hasn’t been destroyed. Well… hasn’t been destroyed by hulkageddon.
Quick jump to EFT, the tank, recommended by halada, whose guide I read several times and was nice for telling me which skills I needed, has 10k EHP and can tank 54 sustained dps. The assuming voice in my head tells me this is pathetic. If I were to swap out everything but my strips for tankage, then I still wouldn’t be able to fit much of a tank because, skills incorporated, after strips I have 195 CPU, 7.75 powergrid, 1k shield and 1k armor. I really, really don’t see that tanking six BCs designed to kill without worrying about defence.
And there you have it. *you* chose to educate yourself and to remain aware of your surroundings, this means *you* are an unlikely victim. And frankly, you are not the “target” audience.
The ones that don’t care to learn, dont care to actually /play/ or are just macro bots, those are the real targets. 🙂
like my previous comment, you cannot tell me this is not a good thing.
There is something intensely satisfying about killing mining ships, I have no idea what actually triggers the satisfaction. The glee I feel inside when I find a wartarget gang mining is so intense that I know nothing better. The Hulk has a special place in this since the damage being done to the target is large due to T2 insurance issues.
As to Hulkageddon, it’s being done because it can be done and bored pvp’ers (essentially all pvp’ers in Eve are bored) will jump on the train to pew pew.
While it can be done it will be done, suicide tactics have reached an all time high and I believe CCP needs to take a look, and yes nerf it.
I love the the Hulkageddon event aht is happening. I also understand you point of view about the defenceless ships and most of all Pomeranians. I laughed when i read about building snow hulks and pods. So kudos.
Something that would be really cool is if ccp designed a q-ship to work with miners. Take a mining barge strip out all its mining and cargo ability and give it the offensive capability somewhere between that of a destroyer and a cruiser. Then you have a friend join your mining op in one. Surpise!
Mostly I think it is interesting that there are so many people that dont understand the full ramifications of playing in a game where there are next to no rules for interaction for players. Its what people bring to the game. Most of the crying or whining mentioned has been from the basis of what people feel should be happning. Say Luvie.
Nice blog I’ll bookmark it.
Hmm… twenty comments and record views if I talk about a current topic and whine about it.
must….resist temptation…. to turn blog into series of posts whining about pirates….
Why 5 hobgoblin 2s? Why not 5 ECM drones? Just dump the drones, align, and soon enough you’ll be able to warp away. Works well 1v1, not so well 1vMany. Losing 5 ECM drones is much cheaper than losing your hulk.
Well, for one I can’t use ECM drones…yet. Good point tho, assuming one target, sure. But, since you’d usually need more than one catalyst to alpha strike a hulk, and you’d have a snowball’s chance in hell to jam a BS, if my experiments with a kitsune have anything to say for it.
It takes more than one Catalyst to alpha strike a hulk, right? Cause if not I’m going to….. do….. something. Like move to WH space! Yeah!
My thought is basically that the kind of people Eve attracts are people who believe in Ayn Rand objectivism. They also tend to be the sort to say RTFM and such when talking to non-computery people.
Personally I find the whole concept of cruelty to teach lessons wrong. We are not morally constrained to kindness because of external rules, but I find that often people leave morality behind as soon as they feel they can justify it.
When people enter Eve, they are told it’s an open sandbox where people can do anything and that they should be prepared because people will hurt them. I wonder how closely the glee that comes from hurting people in Eve is to the glee that people find in hurting people for real.
How much difference is there between the two Enron folks screwing over granny in real life and two people in Eve setting up a confidence scam in order to steal billions. Then I have to ask myself, why do we put up with the folks in Eve anymore than we put up with the Enron guys.
As for one person that gets all “gleeful” when I kill people in EVE, I can easily say that EVE and real life have nothing in common at all. I’d never, ever, hit anyone, steal from anyone, scam anyone or willfully do anything to hurt a person in real life unless he’d gone over mountains to deserve it. I work in the Police force and I cannot justify that kind of behaviour in any way. It would most certainly keep me awake at night as well.
As for EVE. EVE is a game. EVE is an escape from reality. EVE is entertainment. Do you avoid buying and building on the expensive streets in Monopoly just because it would be amoral or rude? It’s a game. Treat it as such.
Hmm, bit of a necro but I thought I would ask a question: have you ever run into a white knight? I don’t attack miners b/c my director is a fervent miner and a good friend IRL. My loyalty prevents me from eating your feeble ships, so instead I save them. From NPC’s or PC’s it doesn’t matter. I never get thanked, in convo or local, and don’t expect it.
Anyways, Hulks are an appetizing buffet spread in front of starving men: defenseless, slow, easily scrammed and valuable. And one other thing you haven’t mentioned: everywhere. I rarely leave .3+ space and I see Hulks and other miners everywhere I go, in every system, at all times. Why would anyone pass up a shot at such a, to them, cheap renewable resource?
My 2 isk. Thanks for the amusing blog, learned a lot about industry and wormholes from it.